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Topic: Bb color change question< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
 Post Number: 11
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 23 2004,11:05  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Excellent video, I had to order it after reading your post. Is Hawaii 1942 part 2 have any good shots of the battleline? I need to know if I should order it. Thanks sincerely Brian Kotula
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PostIcon Posted on: Oct. 25 2004,12:51 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

As I posted in the ARIZONA - VESTAL section, and in support of John Snyder's post quoted in part from the Paul Stillwell book; I posed the question about ARIZONA's paint scheme, post drydocking after the collision with OKLAHOMA, to ARIZONA survivor, Henry M. Cruz.   His response was an emphatic "dark gray, not blue", some other ships were blue, but ARIZONA was dark gray", ie. Measure 1.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2005,10:12 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Aloha,

There are some things I noticed about the shot of the blue Lexington in drydock in the still from the Kodachrome film.

The first thing is the gates of the drydock are also blue. It seems a bit odd that they would have painted them a camoflage measure blue rather than a gray that would blend in with the concrete around them.

The second thing is the water. There is a shadow from the right side of the dock on the water splashing through the gates. The water in the sunlight is white, as you would expect white water to be. The water that is in the dock's shadow is blue. I would expect white water in a shadow to show up as a light gray in the picture, not as a light blue.

The gates and the water make me wonder if the blue on the ship is accurate, or if it's some result of light conditions combined with the limits of 1940s color film.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 31 2005,3:20 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

There's a whole science to color shifts in film.. we had some posts about this on the modelwarship board that I wish I had saved now. The general consensus was that some films will color shift over time, and in some cases grays will take on more of a blue tone.

There is much research on this left to do, I'm afraid.

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Let's see what this does...

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 03 2005,1:26 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hello all,

First, part 2 of the video does show pictures of the California being drydocked, which would place the footage in the 9 April 1942 date period, and the footage shows her to also have been painted in 5-D.  The video as a whole makes a good compliment to part 1.

Second:
Quote
There are some things I noticed about the shot of the blue Lexington in drydock in the still from the Kodachrome film.


According to an engineer at Kodak in Rochester, NY, Kodachrome film of that time period was tungsten based, and will shift to blue over time.  If you also notice, the anti-fouling red has a purplish hue to it, whereas the actual color, based on the Munsell codes for that color, is a pure red.

There are other questions that need to be asked about this piece of footage.  According to the operational records of the Lexington that I've found, Lexington either wasn't at Hunter's Point in October 1941, or was drydocked for such a short time that re-painting couldn't have taken place.  Further, there is a documented picture of Lexington on 14 October 1941, which shows her in an MS-1/MS-5 scheme.  Since the order 15-CN41 discontinues the use of this scheme, the question of why only certain parts of 15-CN41 were obeyed, specifically only the replacement of 5-D with 5-S.  Here's the picture:

Lexington on 14 OCT 41

So, it can be shown from the "Hawaii in 1942" video that three ships specifically stated to be painted blue, Nevada, California, and West Virginia, were actually painted in 5-D after the attack.  Further, it can be shown that the Lexington was painted in MS-1/MS-5 upon leaving San Diego in October 1941, and that she didn't return to the west coast before the attack according to the records of the Scouting Force.

This discussion is interesting in that it has been discussed for about a year and a half, and yet no specific evidence, either photographic or documentary, has been presented to support the statement that the BB's at Pearl Harbor were painted in some shade of blue.  However, there is plenty of photographic, documentary, anecdotal, and time frame evidence that says these ships were painted in accordance with Measure 1.  The Lexington seems to be a sort of red herring, since the one frame of film footage is, at best, seriously blue shifted, and all other evidence doesn't support the conclusions that are being drawn from that piece of film.  So I think it would be good for the discussion to ask that some sort of evidence be provided that demonstrates the voracity of the claim that these ships were painted in accordance with 15-CN41.  It can be as simple as a NARA stock number of the footage cited, or a requisition from any of the ships concerned for White 5-U and Blue Tinting Material 5-BTM dated prior to the attack.  Even a reason why no independently verifiable evidence has been produced might lead to a further understanding of this discussion.  

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 04 2005,1:41 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Money. Those that have spent the time doing the research want to recoup their investment. I'm looking forward to seeing how the evidence stands up myself....

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Let's see what this does...

Tracy White
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 04 2005,11:20 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hi Tracy,

Quote
Money. Those that have spent the time doing the research want to recoup their investment. I'm looking forward to seeing how the evidence stands up myself....


Then, I guess you can understand how the dubious nature of this claim is so easily reinforced as time goes by.  Since it looks as if there is a willingness by the researchers to allow surrogates to continue to advance this claim, while at the same time providing spurious evidence and failing to address counter claims based on readily available evidence, it does seem to indicate that there is no proof for the claim.  Rather, the claim was made in order to sell something, which is substanciated by the above statement.

This is why I'm requesting that a fragment of this information be made public, and be allowed to be independently verified.  By this action, there could be a whole new avenue of research opened just like was opened by Alan Raven with the Plastic Ship Modeler articles in the late 1990's.  Also, by independently verifying this evidence, it would demonstrate to many that the research done in the past 20 years is faulty, and needs to be re-examined.  It could change the entire understanding of the camouflage used in the immediate pre-war period, as well as early days of the war.

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 05 2005,2:07 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I understand your point, but also that of the researchers in question.

Since the information is in the archives no one "owns" it, but also trying to put myself in a situation where I can at least recoup some of the costs of research I can see why they would want to hold out and scoop everyone.

In the end I'm comfortable saying that Arizona was in MS1 but there's some controversy as to the exact color. Considering the time and effort we spend fighting revisionist claims about whether Roosevelt knew in advance my stance is that there are claims to colors other than 5D but that we haven't seen the proof yet. Same with the FDR claims... I haven't seen the proof yet.

What does bug me is the snarky comments made by people who have nothing to offer other than opinions. You've done research at least and can offer materials to support your position. Some of the comments on other web sites though serve no purpose than to stroke the poster's ego.

I look forward to the debate that happens when the research comes out!

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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 05 2005,4:41 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hi Tracy,

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Since the information is in the archives no one "owns" it, but also trying to put myself in a situation where I can at least recoup some of the costs of research I can see why they would want to hold out and scoop everyone.


Well, since we're talking about recovering costs, then that will occur when their book is published.  It's no different that the models that my company produces.  We do the basic research, make the product, and then sell the product.  However, claims are not made about certain details without substancial proof of those claims.  That is the part that hasn't been addressed.  "Scooping" someone on a point of this nature is irrlevant since this claim would refute 60 years of accepted research, and because of this, far more than a single photograph would suffice in a "scoop",  and other supporting evidence could be made available to support this claim without compromising their "scoop".

Quote
Same with the FDR claims... I haven't seen the proof yet.


Then why is there such a willingness to accept this claim at face value?  You accept the fact that Measure 1 was used, which was discontinued by 15-CN41, but there is a question of what color was used?  The simple fact is that the navy would have followed the order presented, and if 5-S was used in the scheme (5-N shouldn't even be considered since it wasn't even being used by the Atlantic Fleet until after the attack, and this color was developed there), the scheme would have been Measure 11 if 15-CN41 was followed rather than Measure 1.  

Quote
What does bug me is the snarky comments made by people who have nothing to offer other than opinions. You've done research at least and can offer materials to support your position. Some of the comments on other web sites though serve no purpose than to stroke the poster's ego.


However, this view could also be considered appropriate for the people trying to advance this claim.  Their basic evidence is the following:

1.  15-CN41 which provides a fixed date to base from.  However, the claimants do not address that Measure 1 was discontinued by this order, that the order allows for the continued use of measure 1 until stocks of 5-D are exhausted, nor do they address the amount of time needed to produce enough of the new colors and get that paint shipped to Hawaii in enough quantity to have six of the eight BB's painted they claim were painted blue.

2.  A black and white photo of Arizona in a dark scheme next to a pier.  The photo obviously shows the ship in Measure 1, and since the darkness of the paint in contrast with the light tops of Measure 1, the only conclusion that could be drawn is that this shows Arizona painted with 5-D, unless 15-CN41 was disregarded in reference to the measure used.

3.  A color film frame of Lexington in Hunters Point drydock.  Yes the film shows a blue hull consistant with the color 5-S, but a photo dated 14 October 1941 shows Lexington leaving San Diego in Measure 1 again.  If this film hasn't shifted blue, that would mean Lexington was painted, undrydocked, shifted to San Diego, loaded with F2A's, and set sail within 8 days.  This doesn't even take into account that Mare Island wouldn't have had stocks of the new color prepared before 6 October in quanities to paint Lexington, which would also mean that the paint used was also produced and shipped across San Francsico Bay in this time period.  

4.  A statement of "trust me on this".  

Since you state that you haven't seen this proof, then why is it being accepted at face value.  To use your own analogy of FDR knowing the attack was about to happen, There is plenty of evidence that completely discounts this belief.  Yes, there are some very compelling arguments that can be made to support this, such as the Corrigidor Magic intercepts, but once they're examined beyond face value, they fall apart.  This claim should be treated no different.

Further, there is evidence that is being disregarded that refutes this claim.  First is the anecdotal statements of crewmen, almost all of which say these ships were very dark gray.  Second is a letter written by ADM Pye on 6 Dec 41 discussing "the long gray line" of BB's entering harbor that day.  One of the proponents of this claim has stated that ADM Pye didn't know what he was talking about when he wrote the letter.  Third is a statement by one of the proponents of this claim that the ships were repainted after the attack at their moorings, which is why the post attack films show them to be in 5-D.  Fourth is the color picture of Arizona's mainmast posted earlier in this discussion.  Since the smoke from the fires was blown forward, the paint on the mainmast would not have been affected, and this photo clearly shows 5-D below the 5-L top.  Finally is the post-attack salvage films that show three of the BB's claimed to have been painted blue painted 5-D.  If statement #4 above, "trust me", is to be accepted, then showing that three of the six were in 5-D after the attack should raise questions to the validity of the claim made, since this was part of the proof of this claim.

My point is simply this.  Since it has become incumbent on those who believe these BB's were painted in 5-D to provide unrefutable proof of this, then why isn't the ones who claim they weren't being held to the same standard?  For a year and a half, no proof has been given that can stand up to simple scrutiny, yet this claim is accepted without much question.  My question is why?

Jon
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PostIcon Posted on: Feb. 05 2005,7:30 Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Most of the photographic evidance of the ship's color is contained in black and white pictures. and in theory that information can be recovered with the use of computer software.

A Black and White picture is a series of shades of gray, the exact shade depending on three things, the original color, the texture of the surface, and the light conditions at the time the picture was taken. The Texture of the side of a steel ship is a constant. Computer images can be adjusted to standard light conditions, this is something that NASA does on a regular basis, and I would assume agencies like the CIA, though the later's methods would be classified information. This would leave color as the only varible.

What you would have to do is obtain High Quality original pictures, jpeg's off the internet won't work. Scan them into a high quality grayscale computer image. Perform light correction by lightening or darkening the image and then comparing the value of the area in question to values that the colors would produce.

Example. Say you know parts of the ship are light gray, but you aren't sure if other areas are dark gray or blue. You take samples of all three colors under the same tight conditions and render them as grayscale colors. each will have a digital value, light gray value 1, dark gray value 2, Blue value three. It is possible that the gary and blue will turn out to have the same gray value, but not likely.

You then lighten or darken the overall image to get areas you know are light gray to have the same value as your sample color to correct for light conditions. You can then compare the areas in question to your other sample values.

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John Dobbins

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