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Topic: Uritsky< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
 Post Number: 1
Rod Dickson Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 11 2001,2:30  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

In the book AND I WAS THERE by Rear Admiral Edwin Layton, pg 220-221, he makes reference to the possibility of a Soviet freighter sailing from San Francisco to Valdivostok possibly passing the Kido Butai on it's way to Pearl Harbor - but nothing happened since both the Japanese and Soviets felt it was in their benefit to say or do nothing.  Has the Uritsky accidental crossing of paths with the Japanese Strike Force ever been investigated further?
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Larry Jewell Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 11 2001,7:09 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Did you read on to page 261?

"...If the Uritsky did sight the Kido Butai that last Friday of peace int he Pacific, her master did not make the customary sighting reports in plain Morse on the recognized international shipping frequencies.  They could have been made after the freighter was safely out of range of the Japanese fleet.  Although no such reports were picked up...."

IF comrade captain had spotted Kido Butai he would have had to have decided on his own that it wasn't worth reporting.  Otherwise you will have to suppose that he was briefed before hand to avoid noticing those ships.  And how would he get such orders?

The Japanese reported after the war that Kido Butai was not spotted in transit.  Building a house of cards around "it's just possible" and "therefore it might have been" is not proof that they lied.

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David Aiken Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 11 2001,8:01 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hi Rod and Larry,
When the Japanese consul in San Francisco reported to Tokyo of the Uritsky (and another Soviet ship) leaving port, there has been huge speculation that its course for Vladivostok would cross that of the Kido Butai.

According to the shipping records from San Francisco, the next port of call for these two ships was Astoria, not Vladivostok.

Thus this is a case of "much ado about nothing".
HTH,

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Larry Jewell Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 11 2001,7:27 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

" Thus this is a case of "much ado about nothing".
"

As always.  Ever hear about the LURLINE being frantically loaded with dependents the night before the attack?  Lady told me she had been hustled out of bed and rushed down to the dock.  Her husband kissed her and said, "tomorrow you may be a widow!"

Now, I wonder why nobody else ever heard about this, especially since she said that hundreds of dependents were on board?  So, I looked it up.  LURLINE was on a regular route between Hawaii and San Francisco.  I have no doubt the lady was on board on Dec. 7th, but I doubt it was a sudden evacuation.

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David Aiken Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 12 2001,6:38 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hi Larry,
The SS Lurline left Oahu on Friday, 5 Dec, thus is not on Ernie Arroyo's roster of ships present. His roster is more complete than the average, and his research continues as he tries to identify select ships. One is the dredge seen in photos in LIFE magazine across Kaneohe Bay of the battle.

Oh, yes, SS Lurline returned to Oahu, under escort, to bring needed hospital supplies (among other material) and on Christmas Eve or Day (Ernie may know the exact time) returned to California with wounded and the wives and children so often mentioned.
HTH,    

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 Post Number: 6
Larry Jewell Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 12 2001,7:37 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I noted that departure in the harbor master logs in the PHA.   The nice lady was certain it was Saturday night.  Another misremembered event that spawns a myth.

I had a guy call me and ask me to send a copy of his father's testimony to him.   He called back later and wanted to know what "edition" of the PHA I was using.  Seems Dad didn't remember saying what was in the transcript.  The elder gentleman was asking how many times the PHA had been "opened and changed".  I replied that I was second owner of the original copy I was using.  It was evidently their impression that there was one copy that could be edited at will.  This is sort of like saying you can remove someone from the phone book after it's delivered.  It's possible, but wildly unlikely.  You'd have to track down every copy, out of 10,000 IIRC, and make seamless changes AND THEN everybody that had their information changed would have to agree to that change.

The conspiratorial mind is an amazing thing.

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Rod Dickson Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 13 2001,12:23 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Thanks all for clearing up the story of the Russian ship.
I didn't realize what a feat it was to sail undiscovered from Japan to Hawaii until I flew from Honolulu to Narita.
That was quite an accomplishment of stealth for the IJN.
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Larry Jewell Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 13 2001,7:37 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I've sailed those waters with the USN more than once.  It's not at all surprising that the Kido Butai wasn't spotted.  Even in the 80's it was unusual to see a ship on that route.  It's just not a very good sealane.  When you consider that the whole fleet never spotted a single vessel other than their own you can appreciate why they took that road.  We had declared it an "empty sea" because of the absence of traffic.

The whole problem with myths of this kind is the amount of work needed to clear them up.  Some are easy, like Shiraya's "location, course and speed" broadcast.  Others can only be busted by delving into dusty records in obscure places. Without Dave's access to "the shipping records from San Francisco" I would not have been able to tell you where Tovarisch Uritsky was going after she left there.

Then you have to have the correct information in one place and accessible.  Hopefully this board will be one place people can go to "get it straight".  The combined efforts of people who care about the truth should undo the best efforts of people who care about making a buck or two off conspiracy "fans".

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Larry Jewell Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 14 2001,10:27 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Here's an interesting message:

27 Nov
From: 1stSecNavSec
Imperial Hq.
To: Striking Force
COSCombined
"Although there are indications of several ships operating in the Aleutians area, the ships in the Northern Pacific appear chiefly to be Russian ships. ... They are Uzbekistan (about 3,000 tons ... 12 knots) and Azerbaidjan (6,114 tons less than 10 knots). Both are westbound (from San Francisco)." SRN-116667

http://www.history.navy.mil/books/comint/ComInt-A.html

Seems the Japanese knew what Russian ships were going where.  Odd they don't mention Uritsky.

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David Aiken Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 15 2001,10:04 Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ahhh Yes Larry,
Uzbekistan and Uritsky are the same ship...sort of like Peping and Beijing.
HTH,
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