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Topic: That photo again< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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Chris Johnson Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 25 2001,11:31  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I know elsewhere on this forum we have taken a closer look at this photo, but has anyone noticed this... Just aft of the foremast of the West Virginia, there is a white column coming out of the water right next to the ship. Could this be from a torpedo hit or am I seeing things?

I have a much clearer copy of the photo here at home that I am looking at right now, and I swear that is what it looks like. Anyone have anyother guesses?

Regards!

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David Aiken Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 26 2001,9:17 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hi Chris,
See John Toland's Pulitzer Prize winner RISING SUN and follow the index to Hirata Matsumura's description of how/why this photo was taken which shows the hit on USS WeeVee by Matsumura's wingman.
HTH,
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Chris Johnson Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 26 2001,10:26 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

David- I'm ashamed, but I haven't read that account yet, and had never heard about why the photo was taken. I was just looking at it last night and noticed that. Am at work now, so I will have to dig that out when I get home.

Like its been said before, a picture is worth a thousand words.

Regards!

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Rod Dickson Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 27 2001,12:19 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Oh look!  Isn't that a midget submarine conning tower?!
;^)
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David Aiken Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 27 2001,7:27 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hi Rod,
Ken Hackler's article on that "midget sub" in the photo was just printed, I've been told, by WORLD WAR II magazine coming on the news stands now. That photo is QUITE busy as so many things are seen in this early-in-the-attack photo.

See the "swirl" on the water just off the port bow of USS Oklahoma... that is a torpedo which was launched at too HIGH an altitude and it hit the water to go deep to hit the harbor floor. The torpedo motor is still running sending a "froth" to the surface.

On 2 May 1991, dredging that area to allow the USS Missouri to berth there, the dredge operator noted a piling in his scoop. He tapped the piling against the water to get rid of the dirt only to view fins on the other end, the scoop itself clinched the warhead.

The harbor was shut down while a barge was brought under the scoop. I got three calls asking about any documents I might have on disarming the "thang". One from fellow researcher/PHHA Director, John DeVirgilio.

John was able to measure the torpedo -printed in NAVAL HISTORY magazine, Winter 1991- before Navy EOD saw "sweat" on the warhead, signs the explosive might "cook off". So they took it to a reef outside the harbor, placed a small charge on the warhead... The water spike and the thirty some feet diameter hole in the reef revealed the torpedo's potent power after all these years. The rear of the torpedo was recovered and is now an exhibit at the USS Arizona Memorial.

Note the "swirl" just beyond the dredge pipe in the above photo? That is another "no run" armed torpedo which has never been recovered. On the original Japanese photo (not in the USN archive), on the far right, is a third "swirl".

In deeper analysis of Japanese records of torpedo launches in that area, we know of yet another unaccounted torpedo. Examination of this photo by John and myself suggests there may be a fourth torpedo "swirl" coming from 1010 pier area, just forward of USS Oglala/USS Helena showing a torpedo that hit the soil under 1010 pier before it armed itself. The torpedo must travel 600 meters before arming. The "swirl" means the motor ran its time to arm the torpedo.

The Pearl Harbor Base now has this info and these suspect areas for unrecovered armed torpedos. Too many have already died from these weapons. We hope this info helps future dredging operations.

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Ken Hackler Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 27 2001,9:27 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hi guys! áThe WW2 magazine article is out, and I received my copies the other day. The problem is that WW2 made a dozen or so editorial changes that (1) made something incorrect in the article, or (2) removed it entirely. For example, the editor changed "United States Naval Institute Proceedings" to "U.S. Navy Proceedings." Picky perhaps, but I prefer accuracy. They also changed things to say that USS Curtiss and Monaghan ordered USS Case to drop a depth charge on Midget B that evening, which is also wrong. Case did drop the depth charge, but Curtiss and Monaghan had nothing to do with her orders to do it.

The editor left most of the article alone though, so I am not going to yelp too loud!

I'll get the deleted stuff together and put it on here if anyone is interested in this photo. It's more interesting for what can be seen in the photo than the fairy tales created by people like Burl Burlingame and the "Autometric Team." I've put a few posts in the midget submarine section already concerning this photo and their imaginary submarine, along with a close-up of the photo showing what it really is.

It's somewhat humorous but Burl Burlingame cites the Autometric fantasy in one of the websites promoting his book. He says that government investigators confirmed one of his radical theories, that there was a second midget submarine and it was photographed (i.e., the famous photo). His book is so filled with errors that he has to resort to creative fiction like that to promote it. Here are links to his site, if you'd like to read what he himself wrote (in the third person) about his books.

http://www.pacifichistory.com/BOOKSFILE/AFPH.HTML

http://www.pacifichistory.com/PACMONO.HTML

Unfortunately, the current rumor is that the Naval Institute has lowered their standards to the point where they are going to reprint his book. If that is true you can expect a new round of rumor concerning the submarines!

I didn't bother responding to Autometric's latest fantasy (Proceedings magazine, Dec 2000) because some things are just not worth the ink.

For example, they make a big deal about "new information" from Japan, then all they write about are the well-known release times and locations. These guys are such poor scholars they use the names from the 1967 hoax article in "Our Navy" magazine even though the actual names of the midget submarine crewmen have been known since 1942.

Also, they make a big fuss over the mysterious "electric light barrier" based on an interview Dan Martinez conducted with an unnamed veteran. The problem is that Martinez didn't check the guy's story, and neither did Autometric. It's nothing but a war story, changed over the years.

If anyone had bothered to look it up (Hewitt Inquiry, Exhibits 74 and 75) they'd have known that the electric indicator lights were installed on December 27, 1941, as a result of the Pearl Harbor attack. There was nothing in place prior to that, and there is no real mystery about this except why these people are allowed to write history.

Of course, looking in the archives at other 14ND documents would help them tremendously, but none of them have ever allowed research to get in the way of a story!

Remember, your tax dollars are going to the Boeing-Autometric people for defense-related photographic interpretation. I suppose they deserve it being the "experts" they are, but one does have to wonder about their abilities if this photo and series of articles are examples of their work.

People can make a good living passing rumor and unresearched speculation off as history, and this photo will hopefully remind us all to check and double check everything. I know I just have to look at it when I get cocky and it brings me back to earth!

By the way, I have e-mailed Dan Martinez asking for the name of the man he interviewed, but I suspect my e-mail was lost in the shuffle someplace. I'd be willing to bet Dan receives a load of e-mail each day. If anyone sees him at Pearl you might ask him for the name of the unnamed sailor, mostly because I hate leaving loose ends dangling like that.

(Edited by Ken Hackler at 12:44 pm on April 27, 2001)

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Band22 Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 27 2001,8:05 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Ken, thank-you for the answers that have had me puzzled for a few years. I obtained a copy of the Auto-metric report in January '98 and gave it to my dad.We were drawn to the hit on the W.V. and the plume of water exploding on its port side.We also wondered about the small boat so close to the "sub".
In any event, I often find my father staring at this photo. I find myself doing some staring too.It is a truly remarkable photo.
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Rod Dickson Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 28 2001,1:39 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Along with the column of water on the port side of the WEST VIRGINIA's hull there also appears to be the glow of the explosion. The light looks rather eerie on her portside. FWIW I never gave much credence to the 'midget' submarine running amuck in the harbor during the attack. It makes for interesting folklore though.
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Mike Wenger Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: May 01 2001,10:47 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

All,

Note the Type 99 (from Shokaku) proceeding northeast after pulling out of its dive-bombing attack on the seaplane ramp on Ford Island. áThe aircraft is visible just above San Francisco in the Navy Yard Repair Basin, although in terms of distance, it is certainly over the channel.

This is the only photo (of which I am aware) which shows any aircraft from Lt.Cdr. Takahashi's division during the attack.

Mike Wenger

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David Aiken Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: May 02 2001,9:23 Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hi Mike,
Considering the action and damage within the harbor...the photo is taken just a bit later than Takahashi's unit of nine VALs...the ship damage and associated planes can be connected and the planes can be identified by crew, too! See "The Search for Five Hirohito Messengers" in March 1992 MARU magazine for the identifications.
Cheers,
David Aiken
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