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Topic: Renewed Interest, What became of the midgets?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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Ken Hackler Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 18 2003,12:46  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

The discovery of a Japanese midget submarine off the channel entrance to Pearl Harbor in August 2002 renewed interest in the December 7, 1941 attack as a whole and in the midget submarines in particular.

What do we know about these small submarines? Five of them participated in the attack, and each had a two man crew. They were carried to Oahu by larger "fleet" submarines and released between 5 and 10 miles off the channel entrance.

It is difficult to talk about their exploits that day with certainty, since only one of the midgets was captured intact. Another was sunk inside the harbor and raised shortly after, but she was in such bad shape that it was not possible to identify her. Another was sunk outside the channel entrance before the attack began (the one found recently).

Of the other two, one evidently sank for unknown reasons, possibly resulting from combat damage, to the east of the channel entrance. She was found in 1960 and salvaged.

The fifth was never located.

The identities being unknown (for the most part), they have been called Midget A through Midget E by historians since the early 1970's. This clarifies the discussions somewhat. Here is what we do know.

Midget A was sunk at the channel entrance by the USS Ward about an hour before the air attack began. She was located in August 2002, although she has not yet been salvaged. Both of her crewmen are assumed to be inside the vessel.

Midget B made it into the harbor only to be sunk by USS Curtis and USS Monaghan without having inflicted any damage on American ships. She was salvaged in mid to late December 1941 and buried at the Submarine Base, where she remains today. Both of her crewmen were killed and their remains recovered.

Midget C had equipment problems that prevented her from having much of a role in the attack. She ran aground on a reef near Bellows Field on December 8, 1941, and was salvaged almost immediately by the US Navy. She spent the majority of the war on tour in the U.S., and is now on display in Texas. This boat has been identified as the HA-19, launched from the fleet submarine I-24. One of her crewmen was captured alive, the other was found dead.

Midget D sank for unknown reasons about a mile east of the channel entrance, possibly as a result of damage from American depth charges. She was accidentally located in 1960 by U.S. Navy divers on training exercises, and was salvaged. She was returned to Japan and is now on display. Neither of her crewmen's remains were found inside the boat and their fate is unknown. However, the hatch was found in the open position, something that could only have been done from the inside.

Midget E is the fifth boat. She and her crew are still missing. She was afloat late on the evening of December 7, 1941, and is identified by the two radio messages she sent. This midget was launched by the fleet submarine I-16. These is a large body of evidence and eyewitness testimony that supports claims that this is the boat that launched one or two torpedoes at the USS St Louis as that cruiser left the channel entrance around 10:00 AM on the morning of December 7.  

As you see, the arguments that a midget submarine was photographed inside the harbor near Battleship Row at around 8:00 AM on the morning of the attack are horribly flawed. Those arguments are based on the manipulation of an old and faded photograph, and are being spread by people who have failed to conduct adequate research.

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stevea41 Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 21 2004,7:13 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

After educating myself on the movements and fates of these five midgets, I'm wondering if we can deduce whether the "mystery" BB Row midget attack really occurred.

1.  The photographic analysis asserts this midget actually launched torpedoes against Battleship Row.  If so, can we account for the ten torpedoes in this midget fleet (5 x 2) to determine if this "mystery" attack really occurred?

2.  Midget A and C never penetrated the harbor so their four torpedoes are out.

3.  Midget D was found in 1960 near the harbor entrance with its two torpedoes on board...minus two more from the possibilities.  Now we're down to four torpedoes to account for.

4.  Midget E, the lone sub unaccounted for today, fired its two torpedoes against the USS St. Louis.

5.  That leaves Midget B.  As I understand, it was attacked and sunk in the Middle Loch at about the same time the "mystery" attack was alledged to have occurred and a good ways away from Battleship Row.  

This accounting of the force's ten torpedoes seems to indicate that the "mystery" midget attack did not occur on Battleship Row.  Where have I gone wrong in my thinking?

Steve Athanas
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Tracy White Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 21 2004,9:54 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

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This accounting of the force's ten torpedoes seems to indicate that the "mystery" midget attack did not occur on Battleship Row.  Where have I gone wrong in my thinking?


Are you sure that you have?

Midget B DID fire it's torpedos, but not on Battleship row. She fired on Curtiss and Monaghan.

The people pushing this theory just aren't willing to admit they're wrong at this point, even though there's damning evidence to the contrary and not one piece that supports them that will stand up to scruitiny.

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Let's see what this does...

Tracy White
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David Aiken Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Apr. 21 2004,10:07 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Welcome Steve,
Yes, you have done your homework. As you read this site, I hope that we have done ours as well. Compare your questions with our responces in the midget sub section to confirm this possibility.

To help your quest about the famous photo made from Hirata Matsumura's Raigekiki [torpedo plane], check out the discussion at "That photo".

Oh, yes, the aerial torpedo attack was over at 0811. The midget sub vs USS Monaghan was about 30 minutes later.

Hope this helps,
Cheers,
David Aiken
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Mark Cooke Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 19 2006,7:38 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

i see now said the blind man. or other word's don't believe every thing you see on the history channel i think or maybe it was discovery channel?  i won't call nobody name's that don't get you nowhere. but why would they put something that not proven fact on tv as the truth?? look at all the kids that see that and they will believe there was a midget sub that was firing on the W.V. battleship, if i got my fact's right? at least i will say when i am wrong, other people should clear up their own mistakes before telling kids wrong? that i believe is very wrong of them... ps; i am new here just starting learn my way around.. very nice site you all got very professsionally done.

Edited by David Aiken on Jan. 19 2006,11:20
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Tracy White Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 20 2006,12:31 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

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but why would they put something that not proven fact on tv as the truth??


1) They believe it is the truth
2) Any media company (Be it the Thistory Channel or Discovery) is more concerned with ratings than truth. As a business they have to be, but I do wish they were a little more selective in what they produced.


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Tracy White
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Mark Cooke Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 28 2006,3:23 Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

thank you for your very nice reply Tracy White. after very carefull study of what they call "PROOF" of there side of  a mystery midget sub firing on WeeVee or any other battleship at the time this photo was taken.. it would be like me as law enforcement officer pulling you over and seeing what look's like a 12 pack of beer in a completely close unopened unseethrough paper bag, and i taking a very bad photo of it, arresting you for dui, putting you in jail, you loose driver's license's, putting you through a lot of public embarrassment and all the proof i got is that fuzzy bad photo to show the judge. they laugh me out of the state of West Virginia and a very good chance of the USA, i sure wouldn't ever be on the t.v. show COPS (they sure be no song for me lol  bad boy's bad boy's what you going to do  lol) please i hope nobody take this personal but i just don't see no fact's in what they believe. there is a slim chance they right (est.20%). the new tech.we got now i think we can find that missing midget sub. that would be a excellence training mission for military and/or a collage to take on as a project and then everybody would know..again everybody please don't take no offense about this post . iam just trying to explain how i (myself)see this questionable fact that this mystery sub is doing all they say its doing if they did we sure need to pin metal's on them men because they sure did a fine job.
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