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Topic: Questions ... always questions< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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jamaksin Search for posts by this member.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 12 2002,9:47  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Four (4) Pearl Harbor questions I'd like commented upon:

A. From "Admiral Kimmel's Story" by Husband E. Kimmel, Henry Regnery
Company, Chicago, 1955, Chapter VI (Suppression of Evidence),
pages 125-126, beginning with "2.  The White House File"

"In November of 1945 during the congressional investigations, Captain
Lavender remarked to the lieutenant in charge of the secret file room that
he had been searching Navy Department files for two years and had just
discovered the one he was examining.  He inquired, 'Is there any other file
bearing on the Pearl Harbor attack that we have not seen?'

The lieutenant replied, 'Well, there is the White House file.'

He explained the White House file contained messages transmitted and
received in Navy code for the President - principally messages to and from
Mr. Churchill.

Lavender promptly reported this to me, adding that he could have access to
the file only by permission of the Secretary of the Navy.  He had scarcely
completed his report when Ensign John J. Phelan, U.S.N., a member of my
legal staff came in and reported that while in the office of Captain John F.
Walsh, U.S. Navy, in charge of the security control section, security
branch, office of naval intelligence, a lieutenant dashed in and excitedly
exclaimed, 'There is #### to pay, Kimmel has found out about the White
House file.  Walsh quickly silenced him by pointing to Phelan and
saying, 'Here is one of Kimmel's men.'

My requests to the Secretary and to the President to examine this file were
disapproved.  We never found out what the file contained.

In testimony before the congressional committee a Navy Department
       representative testified that there were only a few unimportant papers in the
file.  If this be true the anxiety of the lieutenant over my discovery of its
existence is difficult to understand."

WHERE IS THIS WHITE HOUSE FILE?

B. From "And I Was There"  Pearl Harbor and Midway - Breaking the Secrets,
by RADM Edwin T. Layton, USN (Retired) with Captain Roger Pineau USNR
(Retired), and John Costello, William Morrow and Company, Inc., New York,
1985, Chapter 24 (Hard for Us to Take), page 331, beginning:

"At fleet headquarters, Knox listened quietly to a thorough review of events
by Kimmel.  During the course of this briefing, Captain Beatty recorded that
a staff officer 'made a strong, fervent plea for the dispatch of an expedition
to reinforce Wake Island with planes, men and material, but no decision was
reached.'  This first briefing dwelt mainly on the damage the Japanese
inflicted, and the secretary of the navy tried to grasp why their attack had
taken us by surprise.  Knox latter commented on 'the willingness of those
in responsible positions to assume their share of the blame.'  But when it came to pinpointing responsibility, Kimmel was careful to emphasize that had
received no advance intelligence that he might be under threat of attack.

This appeared to astonish the secretary of the navy.  He had carefully
studied all the dispatches and background intelligence before leaving
Washington.  'Did you get Saturday night the dispactch the navy
department sent out?' he asked.  Kimmel denied receiving any war warning
after 27 November.  The secretary of the navy declared emphatically,
'Well, we sent you one.'

WHERE IS THIS SATURDAY NIGHT (Dec. 6th, Washington) MESSAGE?

C. From "Pearl Harbor: Final Judgment" by Henry C. Clausen and Bruce Lee,
copyright 1992, Da Capo Press (member of the Perseus Books Group), First
Da Capo Press edition 2001, ISBN 0-306-81035-2, Chapter 15 (They Just Quit),
page 270, beginning:

"Ferguson hit the roof.  He could not comprehend that these men had sworn
to tell the truth before various investigating bodies, but, at the same time, were bound by a higher oath not to reveal anything about Magic.  (As I said
earlier in my narrative, I had a feeling of deja vu when I read the testimony of Richard Helms about the CIA's operations some forty years later; Congress
will never believe it shouldn't have access to every secret in government.
On the other hand, as I have witnessed it over the years, could Congress
keep a secret if it knew one?)"

COMMENTS PLEASE ON THE IMPLICATIONS OF MULTIPLE OATHS
(e.g., Marshall stated his alliance to FDR was above that to the
Constitution (MacArthur Hearings), Stark said he had a clean
conscience (i.e., to paraphrase, I followed orders.).

D. From "The Codebrakers - The Story of Secret Writing" by David Kahn, The
Macmillan Company, New York, 1967 (first edition), Chapter 1 (One Day of
Magic), page 16, beginning:

"The code clerk in Honolulu enveloped Yoshikawa's final messages in PA-K2
only because high-level codes had been destroyed December 2 on orders
from Tokyo.  Normally, espionage reports of shipping movements and
military activities, sent routinely by Japanese consuls from their posts all
over the world, ..."

[See page 53 for photocopy of a PA-K2 message, noted as "On the evening of Pearl Harbor, Takeo Yoshikawa sends his final message over Consul Kita's
signature, using the PA-K2 code, to report that the U.S. fleet is still
in port."]

WHY DO MOST FBI FILES RELATED TO HONOLULU-BASED ESPIONAGE REMAIN CLASSIFIED (N.B., PA-K2 was broken long before Pearl Harbor and was the code used for many of the Kita messges - the Bomb Plots -the Pearl Harbor grids, the light signals, ...)?

Just curious.

Thank you.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 12 2002,4:41 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"WHERE IS THIS WHITE HOUSE FILE?"

Why do you think such a file exists?  

"WHERE IS THIS SATURDAY NIGHT (Dec. 6th, Washington) MESSAGE?"

Try looking at Pearl Harbor Timeline.

"COMMENTS PLEASE ON THE IMPLICATIONS OF MULTIPLE OATHS"

There were things they were not allowed to comment on.  They said as such.  No member of Congress or any investigative board demanded they violate federal laws by revealing information that was classified.  There were "Top Secret" portions of some reports that discussed classified material on a "eyes only" basis, and testimony given then was before officials cleared for that material.  Later HST authorized full disclosure.  No big deal.

"WHY DO MOST FBI FILES RELATED TO HONOLULU-BASED ESPIONAGE REMAIN CLASSIFIED"

Have you to checked to determine that they are, in fact, still classified?  Your source is from 1967.

Beware of single-source "revelations" and out-of-date sources.  Both are seldom reliable.

Larry J

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"Sunday's horoscope is noteworthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."  - "Your Horoscope," Los Angeles Evening Herald Express, Saturday, December 6, 1941
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 13 2002,7:59 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Mr. Jewell -

Belated Happy Birthday - congrads!!!

A. Let's see - Kimmel, Phelan, Lavendar, the file room lieutenant, Walsh, and the "Navy Representative" - at least six (6) people said it (The White House file) existed?  Is it like the "Winds Execute" - JD #7001 - Briggs/Safford/ ... say "yes" and Krammer (OP-20-GZ)/Linn (SHR-081)/... say "no" - VERY CURIOUS!!!

B. Nothing in the "Pearl Harbor Timeline" - I asked about the message - that is, where is it, what is its text.

C. While the military boards had some closed hearings - the congressional proceedings were open.  So is it plain vanilla-TS, SIOP, ESI, CNWI, Crypto, code-word ... ?  Clausen (he was a lawyer remember, who thought "masons" could do no wrong ...) worried about perjury - like, not only Magic-related but Stark's myriad of "can not recall" and of course, Where was Marshall, ... (please, open that trap door).

Nice try on "eyes only" - is the United States a constitutional republic or a police state?

D. Don't like Kahn (point there was the "Bomb Plots" were in the PA-K2 code - not MAGIC), then try Stinnett "Day of Deceit" - I know one of your all-time favorites - (First Touchstone Edition, 2001 - viz., the paperback) pages 284-286.

Looking there you will see identified, by specific file number, SIXTY-ONE (61) FBI files STILL CLASSIFIED!!!  

So, I ask again - why still classified?  Go for it!

Thank you.

jamaksin

P.S., How's that "One Book" document?  Still in draft form?

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 13 2002,10:43 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Thanks for the birthday wishes.  The second half of my century will hopefully be less exciting than the first.

A. You'rs still citing from one source.  Why?

B.  This is a simple confusion over the word "we".  The message sent by the Army was to be shared with the Navy.  Thus "we" meant the people in Washington.  Kimmel hadn't seen it yet because Short got it after the messenger decided it was safe to get out of the ditch and continue his rounds.  

C. Not worth a reply.

D. Stinnett is not source, it's a sore.  If you want to discuss that book, have fun and a nice life.  

If you review the prior posts on all these topics you'll see that there is no basis for any reasonable person to believe they are significant.  Unreasonable persons don't interest me.

Larry J

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"Sunday's horoscope is noteworthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."  - "Your Horoscope," Los Angeles Evening Herald Express, Saturday, December 6, 1941
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 13 2002,2:54 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Just on item C then - Was Marshall's oath to the Constitution or to FDR?

For Kimmel - check on the "Navy Department" representative.

Other "inconvenient" elements exist/persist - e.g., FDR's commitment of "armed support" to British/Dutch if Japanese went south of the Isthmus of Kra.  Did Congress know about that?

More recently did anyone involved with the Dorn Report tell to John Taylor at the National ARchives !!?  Nope!

Where is the so-called "Thurmond Hearings" in your website - I cannot semm to locate it.  Must not be "official" enough I suspect.

Regards,

jamaksin

P.S., On Stinnett as a "sore" - yes to a great many; not so to some.  Where did the first TESTM report appear, the first "open"  mention of GUPID (really a thrid-level system); specific names/sines of radio intercept; "HITOKAPPU BAY" as a letter-but-letter instance, ... , and those classified FBI files!!!  [Of course, the August 1941 FBI file on "Tri-cycle" is in Prange, Appendix 7 - you know details on Pearl Harbor - is that also a "sore" for you?]

P.P.S.,  And your "one book" draft is where, please ???

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 13 2002,6:05 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

"Just on item C then - Was Marshall's oath to the Constitution or to FDR?"

If you wish to discuss this you'll need to find a board that has such material as its interest.

"For Kimmel - check on the "Navy Department" representative."

That still comes from one source, "Kimmel's Story", circa 1955.  Unisource.  If you wish to be credible you need to show that you have compared the best available sources to each other and really thought about the conclusion you reach from that research.  

"Other "inconvenient" elements exist/persist - e.g., FDR's commitment of "armed support" to British/Dutch if Japanese went south of the Isthmus of Kra.  Did Congress know about that?"

It's in the record.  Have you read the record?

"Where is the so-called "Thurmond Hearings" in your website - I cannot semm to locate it.  Must not be "official" enough I suspect."

It was a link to a site that held the Thurmond Hearings.  I saw no need to reproduce that material.  When the site went dead I felt no great loss.  

Stinnett is a dead issue.  Nothing further to add on that.

You know, I could be one of the worst revisionist historians around, I know where all the little bobbles are hidden.  Did you know one cruiser captain told Congress that he had been deliberately ordered out of Pearl Harbor to avoid being hit during the attack?  There's a smoking gun for you!  Except for two little things.

Larry J

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"Sunday's horoscope is noteworthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."  - "Your Horoscope," Los Angeles Evening Herald Express, Saturday, December 6, 1941
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 13 2002,8:51 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Aloha Jamaksin,
Keep your mind open and avoid the preconcieved agendas of select writers.    

1. WHERE IS THIS WHITE HOUSE FILE? The "White House File" is in the Roosevelt Presidential Library at Hyde Park, NY. Basic research will show you the material, which is all declassified.

2. WHERE IS THIS SATURDAY NIGHT (Dec. 6th, Washington) MESSAGE? Just because Knox said it existed doesn't make it so. I made a detailed search of these records and determined that Knox was in error on the "Saturday nite" message...it was Sunday morning.

3. COMMENTS PLEASE ON THE IMPLICATIONS OF MULTIPLE OATHS I was cleared for SECRET clearance in the military. I was sworn to keep certain secrets.  They are now no longer relevant by the course of history but the oath said you could tell only when directed by higher authority. Thus like the "die hard" Japanese soldier who surrendered only when ordered by higher authority, I can not reveal those items.    

4. WHY DO MOST FBI FILES RELATED TO HONOLULU-BASED ESPIONAGE REMAIN CLASSIFIED They aren't. The FBI declassified that on the 50th anniversary. One just needs to go to the NARA at College Park.

I suggest that you make a trek to Archives II, College Park, MD, to make your own conclusion, as this may be the only way for you to understand what is available and what is classified.
HTH,

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David Aiken, a Director
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 14 2002,6:56 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Mr. Jewel,

Thank your for replies.

For myself, I always liked Tolley's story - "Cruise of the Lanikai - Incitement to War" (interesting figure on page 298 - "Pre-Pearl Harbor Cryptanalytic Net, Late 1941") but as you have your favorite "smoking-gun" others have their own - like Stahlman's letter(s) on General Marshall's whereabouts the evening of December 6th.

Sorry you do not appreciate, even one iota, of the materials Stinnett has brought to light - pity.

Regards,

jamaksin

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 14 2002,8:38 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Mr. Aiken,

Thank you.  I'll try my best to have an "open mind."

I appreciate your reply; my experience is however, a tad different, so I offer the following:

A.  I've been to Hyde Park, seen the draft of the "Day of
   Infamy" speech and what is called the correspondence file
   Grace Tulley maintained.  Would you expect to see/find
   any than santized Pearl Harbor material?  (At least PRO
   [Public Records Office] at Kew says many FDR/Churchill
   paper are still classified.)

   My point was - Why was Kimmel denied access to this file
   when it was timely to his defence?  That seems very odd
   to me.  [But at least you agree, I believe, that such a file
   exists - recall Mr. Jewel's first retort.  Thank you
   for that.]

B.  Knox said he reviewed all the dispatches prior to his
   evaluation trip to Pearl Harbor - and did not raise
   an issue of his Dec. 6th message being missing. [Please,
   not nitpicking on local times, ..., etc.]

   Did your "detailed" search yield the infamous "Winds
   Execute" - from Layton's index copy JD #7001?  While in
   an index, the message itself seems to have been pulled.

   Are you a bit curious about that? [Yes, I know what
   the Briggs/Linn SRH's say, I know what Safford/Kramer
   said, ...  That issues like this are polar-opposites
   to this date is suspect to me.]

   Seems to me many documents are partial, missing, or
   remain classified (See D).  I therefore did not believe
   all the government-held materials are released.

C.  You raise a critically important and key item here!!!

   Who is/was the "higher authority?" The mechanism used
   by the military boards involved some closed sessions - their
   findings are in contrast to Roberts, Clausen, ... and
   "magic" did come out.  Why is that?  Different sets of
   evidences, partisan politics, ... a whole lot of "loops"
   ... ?  To me, good questions.

   Was the alliance to the Constitution of the United States
   of America or not?  Was it to FDR?  Was it to the services?

   Was there a "plausible" group-think rationalization?

   This, again, is a crucial point you've raised?  What
   are the tenets of governance in the United States?  All
   that swear alliance in the United States do so to "defend,
   protect, ..." the Constitution.  [As compared with, say the
   Wehrmacht's oath to Hilter and not to the German state.]

   [American's also swear to "tell the truth, the whole
   truth, and nothing but the truth" - and many still do
   believe that former President Clinton told the "absolute"
   truth under oath - well, at least your Senate did.]

   The fundamental point for many, however, myself included,
   is not the US entry into WWII per se; it is the odd
   circumstances of HOW IT HAPPENED!!!  The public view
   is vastly different than the private view.  [e.g., see
   Stimson's diary entries as a reminder of one man's
   thinking durng the summer/fall of 1941.].

D.  On my last trip (late last year) to "Go Terps" country,
   I asked specifically about access to those "Stinnett"
   identified FBI files - no dice!!!  My FOIA requests of
   same are "still pending" at last check.

   Should you have better luck on these files, please let
   me know.  I plan to continue my efforts for access to
   these as well as other materials.

   I did see a JN25B code book, though.  Did not have the
   time to see the cipher 5, 6, and 7 additive tables.
   Next trip perhaps.

So, in my mind, Questions, ... always questions still persist.
Your experience is obviously not mine.

What would a "reasonable" person say?

Again, thank you for your reply - much appreciated.

Regards,

jamaksin

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 14 2002,10:36 Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

I've addressed the Lanikai elsewhere on this board, you might find that informative.  Not a whiff of smoke if you think about it.

Stinnett has received more attention than he deserves.  Have you reveiwed the many, many articles pointing out the many, many mistakes he made.  His effort, for conspiracy mania, is less than average.  Gullible people do seem to be impressed by him, however, so he keeps popping up.  
Regarding the supposed FDR "file", I noted your dependence on a single source and wondered if you could be prompted to do enough research on your own to support your case.  

Regarding "7001"  that isn't the only number missing.  Guess what?  Humans were involved, and humans sometimes make mistakes for less than nefarious reasons.  Factor that into your paradigm, it'll save you a tremendous amount of anxiety in the future.

Mythology aside, there still remains no evidence of a conspiracy.  At least on the part of the government.  

Larry J

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"Sunday's horoscope is noteworthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."  - "Your Horoscope," Los Angeles Evening Herald Express, Saturday, December 6, 1941
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